Playing With Fire
Please read about the latest and potentially dangerous new treatment protocol described by Kathleen on the Neurodiversity Weblog.
Dr. Geier and Mr. Geier presented their new hypothesis at the May 2005 Autism One conference in Chicago; their presentation was videotaped and eventually made available online at FAIR Autism Media. In that video, Mr. Geier made repeated use of the word “we” when speaking of decisions about the medical treatment of a child, as if he, a legal consultant, were intimately involved in making those decisions. Also at that conference, a Methodist minister from Virginia, Rev. Lisa Sykes, offered an emotional testimonial about the results of “the Lupron protocol” on her autistic son. In her testimony, Rev. Sykes expressed her joy in the unfolding of her son’s communicative abilities; her fascination with the drastic fluctuations in his testosterone levels precipitated by the medication; her attribution of her son’s behavioral improvement to the “Lupron protocol”; her admiration for the Geiers; and her outrage that her son was presumably poisoned by thimerosal in his vaccines.
Scary Stuff!!!
posted by notmercury @ 4:10 PM
53 comments
53 Comments:
If you expect people to listen to you, why don't you use your real name? Afraid?
Kim Clark
Some people just refuse to accept that others put a very high value on their children's privacy - and rightly so.
Kim, nice veiled threat.
btw, are you still the Director for Quality Assurance at The Center for Developmental Disabilities? Or are you the UW masters grad in 2000? Or maybe Kevin Leitch will pass your IP over given your choice comment left on his server some months ago.
Pretty stupid, isn't it? So blow it out the hole by which you utter your non-identifying name, Kim. You might as well have signed in as Jane Doe.
btw, What's your address and phone number? Just wondering because Johnny B. Best needs a friend.
Thank You Kim Clark,
Why would I be afraid?
I'm not expecting people to listen but if they do it should be for reasons other than a name. I'm afraid the autism world is already quite full of names.
Please don't feel obligated to "listen" if it bothers you.
There are many good and ethical reasons for an author to remain anonymous and many unethical reasons to throw around one's name and or connections and status.
Either the words stand on their own or they don't.
Apparently, Kim Clark, can't argue with the fact that what the Geiers are doing is dead wrong and that the Geiers are selling some scary stuff, so she has to point out a non-point.
If anyone is working for "big pharma" here, it's Pops Geier who is working to promote Lupron, obviously. How much a shot??? $2,000! to chemically castrate little boys, and goodness knows what they call it, to little girls --and a little creative bookkeeping doesn't hurt.
Geier-Geier big fat ----. I always liked that schoolyard chant. Maybe the Geiers will learn to do cell signalling like Brewitt.
(knock three times on the ceiling if you want me--wo-o-o, twice on the pipes, means the answer is nooooo)
NM,
Interesting that the Geier 'gentlemen' came up in this. They were also listed on the primary paper (Bradstreet, et. al.)which used Doctor's Data in an attempt to show that autistic kids excrete more mercury compared to controls via a DMSA challenge (This paper was provided as major support for his work by the researcher I spoke with about the Arizona chelation study). I would provide a link for you, unfortunately, this paper was never put to the process of real peer review and published where it could be accessed on PubMed/Medline.
The Geiers are pretty busy guise.
Dad Of Cameron said:
The Geiers are pretty busy guise.
Hafta watch those typos there D.o.C., words can take on whole new (and more accurate) meanings sometimes ;-)
I know the Bradstreet chelation study is avaialable in it's entirety online somewhere but the journal didn't meet standards & requirements to be indexed in Medline? I'm guessing it wasn't Science or Nature.
Bradstreet has said that chelation agents are unlikely to cross the blood brain barrier and remove mercury from the brain so they may work in some other way. I wonder if he agrees with the folks who say "Improvement during chelation is proof of mercury toxicity?"
Oh the Bradstreet paper is out there (copy buried in my e-mails with the researcher I mentioned).
It's quite interesting that Bradstreet may have said that chelation agents are unlikely to cross the blood brain barrier and remove mercury from the brain - that is the entire assertion-based 'premise' of the current Arizona study - and Bradstreet is consulting on it! That paper was published - definitely not where PubMed or Medline would consider it anything near valid.
Interestingly, the Geiers don't appear this time around in AZ.
It's almost as if all these so-called 'researchers' and DAN! docs take turns and move around alot, kind of like if they hang out in one particular place too long, people start to notice.
Not Mercury Said: "In that video, Mr. Geier made repeated use of the word “we” when speaking of decisions about the medical treatment of a child, as if he, a legal consultant, were intimately involved in making those decisions."
To clarify, Dr. Mark Geier is NOT just a legal consultant. He is also a geneticist and an M.D. and was giving testimony about children he personally treated for abnormally high testosterone/precocious puberty and mercury toxicity.
Another clarification: this video we present was not their lecture presentation at Autism One. This was a private interview we conducted with the Geiers. We will, in the near future, present a videotaped lecture they gave in Chicago last month, hosted by FAIR and the Prairie Collaborative for Vaccine Safety. That presentation will contain their slideshow presentation...so you can see their data a little more closely.
Erik Nanstiel
FAIR Autism Media
OOps, never mind. I can see you were referring to David Geier. My mistake. All the same, he is involved in helping his physician father deliberate medical decisions. But is IS Dr. Mark Geier who is treating these children.
Erik Nanstiel
FAIR Autism Media
Thank you for making those clarifications Erik Nanstiel.
Accuracy is important, I think.
Where is Dr. Geier's clinic and where does he do his work in genetics?
Erik Nanstiel:
To clarify, Dr. Mark Geier is NOT just a legal consultant. He is also a geneticist and an M.D. and was giving testimony about children he personally treated for abnormally high testosterone/precocious puberty and mercury toxicity.
Which of these conditions was he treating with Lupron? Were these patients autistic?
Erik,
Holy Sheet, Batman! Sheets of Testosterone! I don't give a sheet about those who don't understand basic chemistry, but those who purport to and still twist it around in order to sell something are pieces of sheet (I'm not convinced tweedle dee and tweedle dumber actually understand how stupid the assertion is).
Congratulations, Erik! You've exposed the morons as biochemically ignorant hucksters. Keep the sheety videos coming and maybe we can hope to see an end to at least one version of child abuse soon enough!
This is the real sheet involved with tweedle dee and daddy.
Just had a chance to watch the Geier video. How embarrassing for them.
Erik, is this your website hosting these videos? Does your conscience bother you to know people will want to inject their autistic children with Lupron after watching the Geiers Sci-Fi serial?
I wouldn't be able to sleep at night but I guess you must really believe this stuff too. Do you?
Notmercury, no, it is not MY website... but it belongs to the foundation of which I am the administrative director. As a "front man" for the foundation, the website is often thought to be mine alone. Its content is decided by a board of directors and sometimes guided by our growing (unofficial) medical advisory board.
Officially, FAIR makes no claims regarding the Geiers new protocol. We let them speak for themselves. If you are unconvinced, that's your perogative.
Personally, I'm intrigued with the data they show (not just this video interview, mind you) regarding how testosterone increases the toxicity of ethyl and methyl mercury... making sense why five times as many boys suffer from neurological damage due to mercury toxicity than do girls.
My own daughter's testosterone levels are 300% what they ought to be. Normal level is 0 to 6. Hers is 19. And her mercury is very high... but lower than it was six months ago.
There's a reason why so many of these kids develop faster than neurotypical/healthy children... there's a reason why they grow body hair too early... why they're so aggressive and physically strong...and why their aggression increases during chelation...
It all points to what the Geiers and Dr. Boyd Haley have been saying...
I've seen some of you say that Lupron is an off-label usage for autism. Well, duh! But it IS an FDA-approved drug for precocious puberty and overly high testosterone. If the kids don't test too high, then the Geiers wouldn't advise it. They also wouldn't chelate if the heavy metals weren't a problem for each child they test.
And Bart (nice alias, chicken sheet) you haven't disproven anything. You merely raise questions, and while I admit I haven't the personal knowledge to engage some of your questions point for point, I invite you to contact the folks you criticize and debate THEM... if you're able. I am sure you won't.
Erik Nanstiel
Erik said: Personally, I'm intrigued with the data they show (not just this video interview, mind you) regarding how testosterone increases the toxicity of ethyl and methyl mercury... making sense why five times as many boys suffer from neurological damage due to mercury toxicity than do girls.
5:1, Is that true? Can you show me where that is published? How about the research showing testosterone increases toxicity of organic mercury compounds?
Can you be any more specific about the "Neurological Damage" we might expect to see? That's a very broad term, "Neurological Damage"
Intrigue is nice but it would take a lot more to convince me Lupron is indicated or somehow enhances the effects of chelation.
So I understand this, is the testosterone elevation causing the mercury to be more toxic or is the mercury causing the testosterone elevation?
Notmercury said: 5:1, Is that true? Can you show me where that is published? How about the research showing testosterone increases toxicity of organic mercury compounds?
I'm surprised you're not familiar with this. Even the CDC's own numbers about autism prevalence show that 5 times as many boys are affected. It's something you can look up pretty quickly... I've got all of 3 minutes, so I'll let you dig for it.
Intrigue is nice but it would take a lot more to convince me Lupron is indicated or somehow enhances the effects of chelation.
So I understand this, is the testosterone elevation causing the mercury to be more toxic or is the mercury causing the testosterone elevation?
The presence of testosterone traps mercury in the body and makes it more difficult for children who are "poor excretors" to get rid of it. when they bind, both accumulate in the body.
Boyd Haley demonstrated that neurons grown in culture are killed by the presence of ethylmercury... but when you add testosterone in the concentrations found in the body... the neurons die much more quickly. So there appears to be a direct synergistic neurotoxicity involved. When the same experiment was repeated using ESTROGEN, the neurons took longer to die than without it. Estrogen seems to protect the nervous system from heavy metals... which could account for fewer girls being affected.
Erik Nanstiel
P.S. Watch Boyd Haley's interview:
http://www.autismmedia.org/media4.html
Oh I'm aware of the gender ratio in autism, you said "five times as many boys suffer from neurological damage due to mercury toxicity than do girls." not autism. I was asking for some sort of references to back up that claim. Can you provide these or should we ignore your statement?
I'm also aware of the effects androgens can have in regards to neuro-protection and neurodegenerative processes but you said "neurological damage" which probably doesn't apply to autism depending on your definition.
Please define "neurological damage" as it applies to autism and as it applies to mercury neurotoxicity so I can compare the two.
MS, for example, does involve neurodegeneration and is more common in women. I wonder why estrogen isn't protective there? Maybe you can ask Haley or the Geier's.
Erik,
You said "The presence of testosterone traps mercury in the body and makes it more difficult for children who are 'poor excretors' to get rid of it. when they bind, both accumulate in the body."
Are you suggesting that autistics are poor mercury excretors? Because if you are, wow, Erik, that could be a HUGE ASSUMPTION on your part. If you're basing that personal assumption on the Jill James papers, you should really work to understand the science behind this, especially as it relates to small and non-representative research populations, and the difference between observations and scientific proof. While you're at it, even if you manage to dig up anything that proves this assumption (the AZ researcher I discussed this with was unable or unwilling to provide anything additional), you might also consider whether or not it matters. Who cares if autisics are poor excretors of mercury if they don't necessarily have higher levels of mercury requiring excretion in the first place. I imagine you'll bring in the Holmes hair study (which won't go far, and will likely be discredited soon anyway - anyone here can point you to relevant analysis of this). Or perhaps you'll even attempt to bring in the infomercial-ish Bradstreet/Adams previous DMSA study (let me know if you need a copy, because you won't find it in the real peer-reviewed medical journals anywhere).
With regards to "FAIR" Autism Media, perhaps you could help me understand the Geiers' role (if any) in selecting Doctor's Data Labs for that previous Bradstreet, et. al. research they were involved with, and why as an M.D., Mark Geier would particpate in and co-author research that would be tossed out in a 'real' peer review.
"And Bart (nice alias, chicken sheet) you haven't disproven anything. You merely raise questions, and while I admit I haven't the personal knowledge to engage some of your questions point for point, I invite you to contact the folks you criticize and debate THEM... if you're able. I am sure you won't."
chicken, you say. Hmmm...
"Officially, FAIR makes no claims regarding the Geiers new protocol. We let them speak for themselves. If you are unconvinced, that's your perogative."
Officially, FAIR is a puppet for scientific misunderstanding and overstatement. I'm looking for Stromboli - it ain't you, Erik - you're a pawn in someone else's fear/money game. However, I don't let you off the hook because you're a facilitator. Now you're trying to make your one-sided advertisement FAIR seem open-minded? Please, you do better with the blind pinata swings at science.
I don't disprove anything by blogging. And really, there has to be something proven for me to even think about disproving it. Since the autism-mercury hypothesis doesn't have credible evidence to begin with, neither I nor anyone else has to disprove it. You actually go farther in disproving it with your videos, Erik. Ridiculous notions like testosterone sheets helps "disprove" it.
Your heros are selling items (Haley, Griers, Buttar and the rest of the knuckle-draggers). I understand your blind faith even if I don't agree with it. I understand that the main driving force behind the reaction to questioning these outlandish claims is powered by horror over the heresy: the act of questioning itself. It must be frustrating to know that the people questioning your heros aren't selling any competing product, they're not trying to make a quick buck or million.
"The presence of testosterone traps mercury in the body and makes it more difficult for children who are "poor excretors" to get rid of it. when they bind, both accumulate in the body."
Utter and complete conjecture. I say ghosts do it. Prove me wrong.
"Boyd Haley demonstrated that neurons grown in culture are killed by the presence of ethylmercury... but when you add testosterone in the concentrations found in the body... the neurons die much more quickly. So there appears to be a direct synergistic neurotoxicity involved. When the same experiment was repeated using ESTROGEN, the neurons took longer to die than without it. Estrogen seems to protect the nervous system from heavy metals... which could account for fewer girls being affected."
A cell culture experiment is proof? Are you serious? I'll go back and re-read the methods and materials. After the first read I took it as unworthy for a video, but maybe it deserves one. Lupron certainly does and you've inspired me to do it. It'll be up later tonight. Fair use, FORE!
Erik,
I want to be considerate of your personal stake in this, but at the same time, I want to understand the 'science' as you see it and as you are presenting it.
"My own daughter's testosterone levels are 300% what they ought to be. Normal level is 0 to 6. Hers is 19. And her mercury is very high... but lower than it was six months ago.
How was the mercury determined as high?
We're you simply told this? And you believe whatever anyone tells you?
Was this determination made based on standard assays with published norms that are supported by correlative studies that were subsequently put the welcome process of "real" peer review in the scientific community?
Or, we're you told this, and presented with an explanation that lead you to conclude, "well, makes sense to me".
BC said,
"It must be frustrating to know that the people questioning your heros aren't selling any competing product, they're not trying to make a quick buck or million."
Erik,
BC brings up a good point. The available science in this situation ain't pretty.
On that note, I do sincerely wish you nothing but health and happiness for you and your family.
OK, I'm just a humble molecular biologist, but I can't see how mercury could cause testosterone to form "sheets" and not do the same thing to estrogen and cholesterol, which are nearly identical, structure-wise. I read the G&G paper and found no evidence for this amazing feat of biochemistry beyond their assertion that it might be so.
It might happen? It might also be caused by space aliens or the Flying Spaghetti Monster - but it's not likely. And it's up to the Geiers to show us that it does happen.
Heck, I can sit in my easy chair and think up six things that might cause autism before I finish my evening tea. That doesn't mean that any of them are even possible, let alone likely. The same thing goes for G&G's speculations about testosterone.
What G&G have done is create an hypothesis. The next step - and one that happens before publication in real science - is to test that hypothesis. The testing is conspicuously absent here.
So please, parents, before giving your precious children over to some quack to be shot full of Lupron, ask them to show you any data they might have that indicates that this treatment might be something more than a "shot in the dark".
And an expensive (and potentially dangerous) one, at that!
Prometheus
Worth repeating:
So please, parents, before giving your precious children over to some quack to be shot full of Lupron, ask them to show you any data they might have that indicates that this treatment might be something more than a "shot in the dark".
And an expensive (and potentially dangerous) one, at that!
Thank you Prometheus. Reasonable and sound advice.
People like Seidel who don't want to help autistic children are good at scaring people with half-truths and bullshit. Fortunately for the kids, Mark Geier doesn't conssult Seidel before he helps to cure a kid.
Fore Sam,
Please offer evidence to support the following claims or I will have to assume they are opinions, half-truths, or complete fabrications.
(1)People like Seidel don't want to help autistic children.
(2)People like Seidel are good at scaring people with half-truths and bullshit.
(3)Mark Geier has helped to cure a kid.
BC said,
"It must be frustrating to know that the people questioning your heros aren't selling any competing product, they're not trying to make a quick buck or million."
Oh really?
That means a lot coming from someone that works at a big university that was bought and paid for by big pharma!
Maurice Hilleman, a former Merck scientist said,
"Getting vaccine products licensed has nothing to do with science; it's politics, not science that gets products licensed!"
"That means a lot coming from someone that works at a big university that was bought and paid for by big pharma!"
Lupron is made by 'Big Pharma' Kevin. Maybe you could explain how one product made by Big Pharma is evil and one is saintly.
I am not defending Lupron. I just disagree with BC's statement. You know who my son is a patient of and that doctor is opposed to Lupron because it is a very painful shot and he is working on something different.
I'm very glad to hear that Kevin :o)
MS, for example, does involve neurodegeneration and is more common in women. I wonder why estrogen isn't protective there? Maybe you can ask Haley or the Geier's.
as someone with MS (and AS and mother of an Autistic & an AS son) I'd be interested in the answer to this one too...
There's a reason why so many of these kids develop faster than neurotypical/healthy children... there's a reason why they grow body hair too early... why they're so aggressive and physically strong...and why their aggression increases during chelation...
And I suppose you have some other explanation for those of us who didn't hit puberty till our mid teens, and are slightly built, and got our strength by earning it-exercise. You know, adrenaline drops the controls people have on their strength. Kids are no different. And a confused kid is likely to be more aggressive and have more adrenaline rushes (imagine that!)
But I'm sure you have a rationalization. Oh, incidentally, I was legitimately heavy metal toxic (like, determined by a toxicologist) and didn't get aggressive during chelation at all. And I'm still autistic. *waits for the rationalizations, knowing they'll come*.
It all points to what the Geiers and Dr. Boyd Haley have been saying...
Oh yes. Mad child disease was a real brilliant hypothesis (sarcasm). The people who resent their children love it.
Kevin C, As you've been told before, you own the biological research in the United States, Kevin (assuming you pay your taxes).
To say that american universities are owned by big pharma is a swing in the dark. I know that you know this, and that you're making these statements because they sound cool and authoritative. They're not cool. They're wrong. Big pharma has relationships with some universities, some centers, and some individual labs, but the majority of money that's spent at places like RU and Harvard is from NIH and HHMI.
I've worked on projects that are in part supported by big pharma. In no way did that affect my research.
Further, by pointing the finger at US research institutions, you're pointing your finger at graduate students (paid 15-25k per year) and postdocs (30-50k per year). These are the people doing the research. These are the people who are doing everything except writing the grants that finance the lab. Questioning their work ethic and their financial motivations is another swing in the dark and a particularly strange one at that.
No one can argue about the politics involved in getting a drug to market. You might take comfort in the fact that we live in an open society relying on a representative government. I doubt the same political relationship with drugs would hold true in a facist regime.
I'd also like to point out that Kevin C mentioned that he wasn't going to do Lupron because of the pain associated with the shot, which is cool, but he side-stepped the reason why Kev asked the question. Sounds like a lupron theory supporter to me, or will he wait until Buttar makes a statement before he takes a stand?
On that note, Kevin, I'd like to say that your blind faith / hero worship of Buttar is really pathetic. You keep spamming his quotes all over your blog and various forums. Have a little pride, man, and try thinking for yourself. Oh, and watch yourself with your Buttar love or your buddy John Best will come swinging at you with his homophobia bat (it's in his closet right now).
BTW, does anyone know what the GR stance on Lupron actually is?
I mean, you have the Griers who are admired by Generation Rescue (at least they're quoted on the site).
Are parents being told "thumbs up" on Lupron?
Erik said: "To clarify, Dr. Mark Geier is NOT just a legal consultant. He is also a geneticist and an M.D. and was giving testimony about children he personally treated for abnormally high testosterone/precocious puberty and mercury toxicity."
To clarify even further: As reported by the Maryland Board of Physicians, Mark R. Geier is an M.D. He has a self-reported Specialty Board Certification of Genetics with a link to ABMS, but a search there turns up zero Mark Geiers. (Someone please check me on this if you can). There is absolutely nothing listed that would indicate he is appropriately medically qualified in pediatrics, neurology, developmental psychiatry, endocrinology, etc.
your buddy John Best will come swinging at you with his homophobia bat (it's in his closet right now).
John just burried the bat...
he's also defined "homosexuality" as "perversion".
Jypsy;
Would you call it normal?
Fore Sam,
If you are about to say homosexuality is abnormal please do so elsewhere. This blog and this thread are not about human sexuality unless of course you would like to discuss the effects Lupron has on sexuality in general.
BC said,
"(assuming you pay your taxes)".
"Have a little pride, man, and try thinking for yourself. Oh, and watch yourself with your Buttar love or your buddy John Best will come swinging at you with his homophobia bat (it's in his closet right now)".
Are comments like these an example of someone that is thinking for themselves?
I do think for myself and that's why I have a lot of info about Dr. Buttar on my blog. Dr. Buttar and his kind of medicine are the way of the future and your science and its lack of any progress towards curing diseases will be history.
Pros and cons, Who's Right?
Here we are in 2006 and we have an empidemic of degenerative diseases and mainstream science/medicine is left scratching its ugly head.
If I had the amount of spare time that you apparently have, I would play with Shrek figures and make little videos for my blog but I don't have that kind of time I instead post quotes and video links to Dr. Buttar.
Kevin Champagne said...
I do think for myself and that's why I have a lot of info about Dr. Buttar on my blog.
Kevin, forgive me for saying this, but that doesn't strike me as an example of thinking for one's self.
I like the work of several doctors and researchers but if I heard them criticized in the way I hear Buttar criticized, I would have to do some serious thinking.
I might wonder why they are unable to address or answer such criticism, why they are unwilling to have their products or protocols tested while they continue to make incredible claims that seem to defy certain laws of physics and medicine.
I would probably start to wonder if one of them continues to offer false hope and coffee enemas to a terminal cancer patient in exchange for an obscene fee.
I might wonder how a person could claim to have invented a revolutionary transdermal chelation agent that was so effective at reversing the symptoms of autism it would be promoted as the cure only to see that same person administer a different iv EDTA chelation cocktail to some patients with full knowledge of the dangers to his or her patients.
At the very least I would start to question the wisdom of promoting such a doctor while so many questions remain unanswered. My first question would have to be why my own child is still very much autistic and improving at a rate similar to other autistic children not under this doctor's care.
But that's just me thinking for myself. You are free to do the same.
"Are comments like these an example of someone that is thinking for themselves?"
Yes they are, given that Buttar didn't write them for me.
You say there's an epidemic? Where? Run! Hide! Kevin Champagne says there's an epidemic on the loose! Quick, buy some duct tape and make sure your batteries are charged!
Yes, start thinking for yourself. You might try by reading something other than Buttar's diary. For starters, I might suggest you taking a jog over to Interverbal's blog and learning a bit about epidemics and the lack of one.
btw, my videos are little, 320x240 to be exact. And the 3GP versions are just a bit above the email size limit. I say "um" a lot. My mic sucks. Whenever I get to borrow a camera from someone for an hour I get a few shots in. But that doesn't matter to me. The only feedback I need is the download count and every time someone like you or Best try to make me an issue, the count goes up. So by all means, please continue.
PS - Shrek is cool.
BC said: btw, my videos are little, 320x240 to be exact.
It's not the size of your video that counts, it's how you use it.
Video killed Fair Media stars
NotMercury said,
"My first question would have to be why my own child is still very much autistic and improving at a rate similar to other autistic children not under this doctor's care."
Uh?
"I like the work of several doctors and researchers but if I heard them criticized in the way I hear Buttar criticized, I would have to do some serious thinking."
Bacause of what other people think and then criticize Dr. Buttar, you would have to do some serious thinking? Is this another example of thinking for yourself?
"I might wonder how a person could claim to have invented a revolutionary transdermal chelation agent that was so effective at reversing the symptoms of autism it would be promoted as the cure only to see that same person administer a different iv EDTA chelation cocktail to some patients with full knowledge of the dangers to his or her patients."
Opps! I accidentally hit publish instead of preview.
NotMercury said,
""I might wonder how a person could claim to have invented a revolutionary transdermal chelation agent that was so effective at reversing the symptoms of autism it would be promoted as the cure only to see that same person administer a different iv EDTA chelation cocktail to some patients with full knowledge of the dangers to his or her patients."
The iv chelation is for older children and from the parents I've recently talked to, its working great!
"I would probably start to wonder if one of them continues to offer false hope and coffee enemas to a terminal cancer patient in exchange for an obscene fee."
You mean this guy?
Canjun Cowboy said,
"I could have had my prostate removed for less and... well there are no grantees that way either and even if insurance picked up the bill I may not have been in, as good a condition as I am today!
Bottom Line, I still feel that this is the right path for me, but it is a journey that is not over...."
No matter how "obscene" you claim the fee was, he's not complaining and this terminal cancer patient is not terminal. Maybe the coffee enemas worked.
Quit thinking for yourself, think about others!
Kevin Champagne said Uh?
I would like to respond to that but I'm not sure I understand the sentence.
The iv chelation is for older children and from the parents I've recently talked to, its working great!
That's nice. I wish the survivors best of luck.
Bacause of what other people think and then criticize Dr. Buttar, you would have to do some serious thinking? Is this another example of thinking for yourself?
Yes it is. When I hear intelligent and valid criticism I like to see a response. If it is unfounded or simply a misunderstanding, it's easily dismissed. Buttar typically responds to criticism with more unsubstantiated claims, that is when he chooses to respond at all. An educated consumer would question his behavior.
No matter how "obscene" you claim the fee was, he's not complaining and this terminal cancer patient is not terminal. Maybe the coffee enemas worked.
Maybe. Hard to tell really since the course of Prostate cancer is variable. More people die with it then from it. Maybe the coffee enemas helped, maybe they didn't. Buttar's bank account probably grew faster than the Cowboy's cancer.
Quit thinking for yourself, think about others!
Thank you for the advice. I try to do both but I never try to think for others. My advice is to always try to think for yourself. Whether you choose to follow that advice or not is entirely up to you.
I thought I was thinking for myself when I saw my child slip into autism following vaccination and decided the two may be connected. I tried to convince others as I tried to convince myself and I was successful at both. That was selfish.
Who am I thinking of, or for, as I share the story of my second completely unvaccinated ASD child? I'm not saying you are wrong about your child but if you were truly capable of thinking for yourself you would be asking "Am I Wrong and should I be telling other parents autism is caused by mercury poisoning and chelation is the cure?"
Think about it.
http://cajuncowboy.com/Dr.Buttar.htm#stats
My conclusions are that, Dr. Buttar is a good Doctor, but alas so far, my prostate cancer has just not been affected by this treatment. I have spent close to $200,000.00 dollars and had very little to show for it. One of the things Dr. Buttar and other natural cure Doctors assert is that surgery is so much more expensive, well I beg to differ. I have spent about $10,000 dollars of the above 2 hundred thousand just in having the mercury amalgams removed from my teeth, then a copula root canals and too much pain to even mention!
I could have had my prostate removed for less and... well there are no grantees that way either and even if insurance picked up the bill I may not have been in, as good a condition as I am today!
Bottom Line, I still feel that this is the right path for me, but it is a journey that is not over....
What I meant by "Uh?" was, that you stated that your child was improving at the same rate as other children "not" under this doctor's care. Did you mean to say at the same rate as children that are under his care?
"My first question would have to be why my own child is still very much autistic and improving at a rate similar to other autistic children not under this doctor's care."
I know of one child that completely recovered on ABA and special diet alone. As you know, they are all different. Your child improving at the same rate doesn't really say anything at all. I think the biggest obstacle to overcome in any of these kids is rebuilding their supressed immune systems. I think that is why some children appear to improve/recover without any treatment. Their immune systems begin to recover, their body's start producing more glutathione, they start removing the toxins like arsenic, lead, and of course mercury on their own.
Hey you know what, I kind of like this thinking on my own thing.
What criticism of Dr. Buttar are you referring to anyway? I have done a lot of searches and never come up with any. All I see are blogs like this one making unsubstantiated claims.
There was one father that claimed to ripped off by Buttar on Left brain/Right brain last year under his Letter to Dr. Buttar thread but I realize now that was just Camille Clark/Autismdiva in disguise.
Is the Cajun Cowboy alive anymore?
Regardless of his pulse status, is this guy being held up as a model citizen who makes informed and responsible medical treatment choices?
What if the Cajun Cowboy was like 4 years old? Who's going to make that decision? Would Buttar take money from CC's parents and join in the hope that the cancer just goes away?
I'm really trying hard to figure out what kind of person would use this guy as a learning point for anything other than what not to do with your money, time, and life.
Maybe the Cajun Cowboy is Autism Diva. Maybe she's got the time to create this psycho Buttar-loving identity to demonstrate that only lunatics would actually do this.
I can't speak for your make believe CC 4 year old or his parents.
We choose Buttar and I really like the results I'm seeing, if that makes me looney, then I have know problem with that.
Kevin Looney (no relation to Andy)
Sorry about that Kevin,
It was a hypothetical question but I could have said it better. I'll try to explain what I meant.
My first question would have to be...
Here I am saying if I were you or another fan/patient of Dr. Buttar's
...why my own child is still very much autistic...
Again talking about your autistic child assuming he is still autistic.
....and improving at a rate similar to other autistic children not under this doctor's care.
again assuming that your child is improving at a rate that hasn't brought him from being an autistic child to a non-autistic child within an unprecedented period of time. I'll admit that I've read some of your posts where you have described your son's progress but it may be unfair of me to make these assumptions. If I am mistaken I hope you will correct me.
I think the biggest obstacle to overcome in any of these kids is rebuilding their supressed immune systems. I think that is why some children appear to improve/recover without any treatment. Their immune systems begin to recover, their body's start producing more glutathione, they start removing the toxins like arsenic, lead, and of course mercury on their own.
Now I know you didn't come up with all of this by thinking on your own. Shall I assume that this suppressed immune thing you speak of has been verified through some sort of lab tests? What about the inability to produce glutathione?
Kevin Champagne said: We choose Buttar and I really like the results I'm seeing, if that makes me looney, then I have know problem with that.
That's fine with me Kevin. I have no right to judge your medical decisions or call you looney. What you do with your child is ultimately your choice.
However, when you give testimony about how Buttar's magic products are curing your son's autism, how mercury causes autism, how other parents should use chelation because it proves autism is caused by mercury, etc. it goes a little beyond what's right for you and your family, doesn't it?
Be prepared for a little criticism and be prepared to be corrected when you say things that are inaccurate or just untrue. When you perpetuate myths about autism causes and treatments, it affects all people with autism including my children, and I will have something to say about that. Nothing personal.
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